Just today, a fellow by the name of "Brian Damage" gave me a comment in my box:
"Bravo!!!! Perhaps the most insightful work on Etruscan Extispicy I have ever read."
I would have taken it at face value and been very flattered if it weren't for that suspicious name of his and my overanalytical mentality which gave me the hasty impression that this was some sort of joke at my expense similar to what Language Hat's peanut-gallery commenters were doing to me recently. So into the reject bin it went. Whoops! Unfortunately, once something is rejected, Blogger doesn't allow you to undo the function.
Upon review of Brian's blog where he indeed mentioned my work on Etruscan haruspical traditions in all intellectual seriousness and in relation to his personal explorations into paganism and modern heathenry, it seems that I've made yet another booboo in judgment (let's just add it to my long list, hahaha). So it turns out this is not a practical joke afterall despite his deceptively jocular username. Therefore, I'm very sorry, Brian, for rejecting your comment and thank you very much for enjoying my blog rants.
He adds an interesting thought about the connection between Rhaetic and Southern Germanic peoples. This is something that I'm interested in too after my recent investigation of the name Arretium, which I've begun to believe is in origin a Germanic name (not Etruscan as often claimed without concrete proof despite attested Aritim-i "in Arretium"). I'm starting to think this is one historical, archaeological and linguistic aspect that I'm still missing in my knowledge of the involvement of Etrusco-Rhaetic speaking peoples in Italy. I've yet to find a published account of this topic that's satisfying though. My sense is that there's a bunch of little bits of information strewn about that one needs to assemble together oneself to get a better picture of things. The easter egg hunt continues.
17 Jul 2008
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Glenn,
ReplyDeleteNo worries, I am glad you bothered to look into things and see that I am for real. I really enjoyed your piece/rant, and I am especially excited that you have an interest in Rhaetic language. I have been struggling for some time just to find someone who knows what Rhaetic is, and who is willing to discuss it with a neophyte linguist. My investigations have centered around one particular Raetic inscription in the Provincial Museum of Art, Trento (Schum. SZ 40/Manc. IR 39) found on the handle of a situla. The inscription bears the characters (as best my understanding of Rhaetic) A L U. As a person with an interest in runic inscriptions, I couldn't pass this one up. ALU shows up numerous times in the runic corpus, and Polome posited the notion of "an ecstatic mental state as transferred to a potent drink". Pokorny takes it back to a hypothetical Proto-Germanic *aluth and claims a lost IE root stem that only survived in the Germanic tongues, While I usually never argue with Pokorny, one instance in one branch does not allow us to assume an PIE root for a word. Now that I have found the same word, on a situla (giving it context) in and around Trento, right along the line where the Rhaeti split into Latin and German speaking peoples after their subjugation in 15 BCE by Cæser Tiberius, I think I have a plausible theory for the origin of this famous inscription. Now all I need is help with the Rhaetic vocabulary. You don't know anyone who understands it, do you?
As you've discovered, Rhaetic is a very obscure language, seldom studied in depth nor by a wealth of people.
ReplyDeleteBrian Damage: "Now all I need is help with the Rhaetic vocabulary. You don't know anyone who understands it, do you?"
I think we're on our own on this one. However I can offer an alternative hypothesis of alu that might interest you.
I believe that Etruscan is helpful in cracking all related languages, including Rhaetic. In my Etruscan database so far, I've settled on the value of "to set down" for the verb al. That means that if Rhaetic is related to Etruscan (and I'm convinced that it is), then it's simply related to an Etruscan passive participle of that verb.
Hence my answer is simply al-u "(it) is set down".
By the way, the same verb form appears to be present in Schum Vn 1: lavisie lavise alu
ReplyDelete.
Hence my answer is simply al-u "(it) is set down".
ReplyDeleteNow that is very interesting. If we posit that Germanic "alu" is a metonym for amuletic magic, as does Mindy Macleod (Runic Amulets and Magical Objects) and also keep in mind Stephen Flowers theory (based on Duwel's) that runic "magical inscriptions" are physical forms of operant vocal formulations (from his article "How To Do Things With Runes: A Semiotic Approach To Operative Communication" as well as his many other works in the public and private domain), from a Raettic/Etruscan verb "(it) is set down".. then this opens up a completely different interpretation of the word and its useage in runic objects and iconography.
I shall give it some more thought. Thank you for your insights.
what really bothers me is that I found the Raettic Alu connection and the Germanic Alu connection long before Macleod wrote her book. I suppose she beat me to the punch. Ugh...
ReplyDeleteBesides a single word, is there any particular reason why you think that this is related at all to Germanic? And how on earth would Porkorny's Germanic root *alúɵ- "ale" (from PIE *h2elu- "bitter") connect with Rhaetic seeing as how respectable scholars are convinced of its relationship to Etruscan? You also need to explain what Schum VN 1, which also contains alu, is saying in full using your equation with Germanic. It's all ad hoc, it seems.
ReplyDeleteI am of the mind that the word (and more importantly the habit of inscribing it) was introduced into Germanic culture through the assimilation of Rhaettic speaking peoples into their tribes and territories. I totally accept a possible Rhaettic origin to the word, and ultimately an Etruscan origin. This is what I am trying to find evidence of, and with your analysis of "(it) is set down" and now Macleod's rendering of "dedication" for the Rhaettic ALU, I am more and more inclined to believe it is an adopted word.
ReplyDeleteDo you agree with this possibility, or are you against it? I really couldn't tell from your question.
Best regards
The strength of a theory is judged by how many assumptions are made ex nihilo. Preferably, we should have zero such assumptions however sometimes assumptions cannot be helped. The point is that we don't try to push our luck. We must feel logically responsible to Occam's Razor.
ReplyDeleteHere you are pursuing the idea that alu somehow *must* be a borrowed Germanic word. This is an assumption of yours and not yet proven satisfactorily, of course.
So therefore, to test the plausibility of your assumption, I ask you to translate not only the single word in your inscription of interest, Schum SZ 40, but *also* in another inscription Schum VN 1 showing the same word (but which is preceded by the text lavisielavise).
So far, you evade this task and my point is that without establishing a consistent value for the word alu in *all* inscriptions in which this word is found while continuing to avoid translating the inscriptions in question **in their entirety** (and mind you, with respect to their archaeological contexts), your theory therefore is lacking in sufficient depth (sufficient, at least, for my tastes).
Here you are pursuing the idea that alu somehow *must* be a borrowed Germanic word.
ReplyDeleteI must have failed in presenting my idea. I am not saying ALU was borrowed from Germanic, but that it was borrowed by the Germanic speaking peoples.
Unfortunately I do not speak or even pretend to understand Agean languages, so I am unable to translate or even hypothesize what the inscription you provided could mean. I could try by using your dictionary, but since I have absolutely no clue how the language is structured, said attempts would probably come across as comical to a linguist such as yourself.
I make no assumptions about Rhaettic other than the idea that some Rhaettic speaking peoples were absorbed by Southern Germanic tribes.
I fully understand Occam's Razor, but this does exclude imaginative.
Brian Damage: "I am not saying ALU was borrowed from Germanic, but that it was borrowed by the Germanic speaking peoples."
ReplyDeleteAaaah, now I see. Then this is a different assumption to test.
If Rhaetic is an Etruscan-related language, there's nothing I know of in Etruscan to connect alu to "ale". As I said, my best guess of its meaning based on Etruscan would be "(it) is set down" as a reference to the action of dedication. Normally one sees Etruscan al- translated more generically as "to give" along with a bunch of other verbs like tur- and men-.
"I make no assumptions about Rhaettic other than the idea that some Rhaettic speaking peoples were absorbed by Southern Germanic tribes."
Yes, you may not have a conviction but for my innocent purposes of debating the idea that you present, your idea that alu could be borrowed into Germanic is indeed a starting assumption that needs to be tested for validity.
Excuse my Borg-like enjoyment of logic but when someone presents me with an idea, I feel compelled to tease out the good and bad points of it. Afterall, what's the point of mentioning an idea if we can't discuss its validity?
"I fully understand Occam's Razor, but this does exclude imaginative.
True, imagination is a valuable quality, but fundamentally linguistics is less about imagination and more about testable hypotheses. It's hardly constructive to discuss every conceivable idea in the universe, both plausible and implausible. I value efficiency of thought and it would appear that your view as you currently present it is lacking and therefore an inefficient use of my mental resources, as Seven of Nine might say ;)
That being said, we both can agree that Germanic and Rhaetic speakers were no doubt interacting somehow. I'm just at a loss as yet to offer anything more substantial on that topic than what you've offered. It's a topic worth exploring more.
Hey Glen,
ReplyDeleteNot that I am trying to beat a dead horse here, but the connections between the Germanic word "alu" and the modern word "ale" are strained at best. There is also the possibility of it being a form of "*aluh" (amulet, talisman) form the stem *alh "to protect". This theory fits in nicely with the extant finds and seems to support the Rhaettic "dedication" to set dwn (as in to set the vocal part of an operant work).
If it is the precursor of ale, and we really don't know what ale was at this point in time (weak beer, cyser, watered down mead, what have you), Polome's idea of an "ecstatic mental state as transferred to a potent drink" or derived from a potent drink, would fall in nicely with your idea of "madness" and "drunkeness" (I have been reading your archives.
I suppose I need to do a great deal more research before the various ideas will start to gel.
Best regards
The ancient meaning of "ale" can be corroborated by the Baltic "alus" and Finnic "olut", both meaning simply "beer", both still apparently retaining a reflex of the lost *-θ. (My etymological dictionary suggests an Iranic origin as also possible for the latter, but the lack of cognates in Permic etc. languages makes this seem dubious.)
ReplyDeleteThe ancient meaning of "ale" can be corroborated by the Baltic "alus" and Finnic "olut", both meaning simply "beer",
ReplyDeleteFirst, are these words native to these respective languages or borrowings from Germanic? I ask because if they are borrowings (and Baltic and Finnish have borrowed a great deal from Germanic), we need to determine when said borrowings took place. Beer, as we know it, didn't exist until the very late middle ages with the introduction of hops, and really didn't take hold until the Protestant reformation (Gayre, Wassail! In Mazers of Mead) when the Catholic church lost its monopoly on mulling spices. Gayre, and others, present the idea that what was once ale is more akin to a cyser (juice based) or weak mead (honey based).
I am beginning to think that perhaps there may have been a conflation of two different concepts (one Rhaettic the other Germanic) that used the same phonogram ALU. I don't know how likely it was as linguistics is not my primary field of study.
both still apparently retaining a reflex of the lost *-θ. (My etymological dictionary suggests an Iranic origin as also possible for the latter, but the lack of cognates in Permic etc. languages makes this seem dubious.)
Yeah, I am afraid that is all Greek to me. My sphere is in comparative religious practices. Thanks for the input though. Any and all help is appreciated.
I think, Brian, you're being too analytical here. If the word is attributable to PIE, it would be *h2elu-t-, created with a noun formant *-t- attached to the aforementioned adjectival root *h2elu- "bitter".
ReplyDeleteNaturally, since all types of alcohol can be described as "bitter", your concern about whether it's ale, cyser, beer, wine, mead, or even a refreshing singapore sling on a hot summer day is hardly relevant to the significance of the Rhaetic word alu. Your search for "metonymic" meanings instead of taking things first at face value is particularly distressing to me.
Since inscription Schum VN 1 also containing alu is quite clearly a sentence etched out, your desire to force "higher meanings" onto words is completely fruitless. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, Brian, but your continued avoidance of addressing that inscription is a warning sign.
WARNING: This conversation is becoming quickly off-tangent and erratic. Keep comments focussed. It's obviously acceptable to be new to linguistics (everybody has to start somewhere afterall), but I start to object to comments that amble about aimlessly without obligation to structure and logic. Save erratic and aimless comments for Yahoogroups, Facebook and Youtube, thanks.