tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post8519864136372601362..comments2023-09-24T05:45:23.811-05:00Comments on Paleoglot: A possible relationship between 'four' and 'eight' in PIEGlen Gordonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-91091201000598190082011-07-26T16:04:15.823-05:002011-07-26T16:04:15.823-05:00In order for this to work, one must establish why,...In order for this to work, one must establish why, despite PIE being an SOV language with postclitic conjunctives like <b>*-kʷe</b> in the earliest recoverable stages, it would be preposed like this. This is unnecessary pleading.<br /><br />Following the KISS principle, it's easier to assume that it's unanalysable because it stems from a much older layer of the language. One may presume Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-81498556660969354832011-07-26T00:50:45.783-05:002011-07-26T00:50:45.783-05:00Hi,
I know that what I'm about to say counts ...Hi,<br /><br />I know that what I'm about to say counts as idle eyeballing, but I was wondering if there are any plausible explanations as far as an etymology for *kʷetwóres. Reading this post, I started thinking, what if the particle *-kʷe "too" at some point could have worked as a prefix as well as/instead of an affix? Is there any way the d of duwo: "two" could have hadTroglodorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03700247687318529837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-82334511390671135202008-12-13T04:42:00.000-06:002008-12-13T04:42:00.000-06:00Peťusek: "The reason why the Leiden linguists reco...<I>Peťusek: "The reason why the Leiden linguists reconstruct */h3e-/ [...] has been that most numerals can be reconstructed with /e/."</I><BR/><BR/><B>Glen: An insufficient, ad hoc motivation.</B><BR/><BR/>Yes, I agree. Until we know more of the morphology of PIE numerals. Moreover, if both "6" and "7" are borrowed, as you and others have suggested...<BR/><BR/><I>Petusek: ...which, if right, Peťusekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02569341081414751770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-86899626926123710982008-12-13T02:57:00.000-06:002008-12-13T02:57:00.000-06:00And maybe to cast further doubt, consider also tha...And maybe to cast further doubt, consider also that *[otʃtʰó(:)w] in this hypothetical dialect could still have easily backformed a new post-IE singular stem *[otʃtʰó-] by simple analogy with the numeral "two" and the apparent dual ending of "eight". <BR/><BR/>If someone can tell me how we might effectively rule out the nagging possibility of post-IE backformation here, please let me know.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-24335020308823489152008-12-13T02:50:00.000-06:002008-12-13T02:50:00.000-06:00Peťusek: "The reason why the Leiden linguists reco...<B>Peťusek: <I>"The reason why the Leiden linguists reconstruct */h3e-/ [...] has been that most numerals can be reconstructed with /e/."</I></B><BR/><BR/>An insufficient, ad hoc motivation.<BR/><BR/><B>Peťusek: <I>"[Alexis Manaster Ramer] reconstructs PK '4' as */os1txw-/ suggesting the PK sequence */-s1txw-/ reflects the PIE sequence */-k^th3-/,[...]"</I></B><BR/><BR/>Of course, it is only one Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-17463664949543802712008-12-11T10:23:00.000-06:002008-12-11T10:23:00.000-06:00Hi, Glenn, sorry for the delayed commentary. So de...Hi, Glenn, sorry for the delayed commentary. So delayed, in fact, that it may no longer be topical. :-) Let me return to our past discussion, first of all.<BR/><BR/><I>Petusek: "Just...the idea that 8 = 4-dual (a typologically common pattern) still appears attractive to me. Can't help it. :-)"</I><BR/><BR/>Glenn writes:<BR/><B>Considering that a PIE root **h₁oḱti- is not reconstructable given thePeťusekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02569341081414751770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-17302276180995633592008-08-20T20:20:00.000-05:002008-08-20T20:20:00.000-05:00Maxime, this may be so, but I still don't see how ...Maxime, this may be so, but I still don't see how this rules out back formation as the source of Avestan's "breadth of four fingers". Unless this root can be securely reconstructed at the PIE stage, I feel this etymology for "eight" will always remain in doubt.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-41219797377782553622008-08-19T06:15:00.000-05:002008-08-19T06:15:00.000-05:00Someone (Klimov probably?) wrote an article on the...Someone (Klimov probably?) wrote an article on the PK-PIE possible relationship concerning the numerals 4 and 8 in the Festschritt zum 65-sten Geburtstag Karl Horst Schmidts (either 1996 or 98). I do not recall the precise conclusion but petrusek's argument strongly recalls it. <BR/><BR/>Klimov's work on ancient IEisms of Kartvelian languages covers the possibility of a PIE *k't ~ PK *tx Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00573214747452132277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-85373861176187822732008-05-24T17:09:00.000-05:002008-05-24T17:09:00.000-05:00Petusek: "Just...the idea that 8 = 4-dual (a typol...<B>Petusek: <I>"Just...the idea that 8 = 4-dual (a typologically common pattern) still appears attractive to me. Can't help it. :-)"</I></B><BR/><BR/>Considering that a PIE root <B>**h₁oḱti-</B> is not reconstructable given the evidence, the facts remain in my favour.<BR/><BR/><B>Petusek: <I>"I wish we had access to any piece of scholarly writing. Local libraries suffer from being desperately Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-41017658047466091092008-05-22T21:06:00.000-05:002008-05-22T21:06:00.000-05:00As for ašti As to Nostratic, I agree the theory (i...As for <I>ašti</I> < "8", yes, that's been the other - and quite legitimate - option. Just...the idea that 8 = 4-dual (a typologically common pattern) still appears attractive to me. Can't help it. :-)<BR><BR/><BR/>As to <I>Nostratic</I>, I agree the theory (in all of its versions, I'm afraid) is problematic, but - at least - there's a site with easily accessible literature on that, so that a Peťusekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02569341081414751770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-73998437361964641792008-05-22T20:33:00.000-05:002008-05-22T20:33:00.000-05:00Petusek: "Derksten reconstructs h2ok^-et-i- 'harro...<B>Petusek: <I>"Derksten reconstructs h2ok^-et-i- 'harrow', which is compatible with Blažek's assumptions"</I></B><BR/><BR/>So he does. Wonderful.<BR/><BR/><B><I>"Now, how do you explain Avestan /ašti-/ "breadth of four fingers"?"</I></B><BR/><BR/>Alright, first off, I'm hardly interested in farflung Nostratic etymologies even though I'm a "Nostratic sympathist" since far too often these Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-40802464903334342012008-05-22T20:00:00.000-05:002008-05-22T20:00:00.000-05:00Let me, please, comment on the Kartvelian matters,...Let me, please, comment on the Kartvelian matters, Glen.<BR/><BR/><B>Glen asks:<BR/><I>1) "What secure reason would PIE *t be interpreted as *tx?"<BR/>2)"Why oh why would a word for '8' be used as a word for '4'...?"</I></B><BR/><BR/>Well, Glen, here are possible explanations:<BR><BR/><BR/>Ad 1) Firstly, there seems to be a phonotactical constraint in Proto-Kartvelian that made the **-xt- clusterPeťusekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02569341081414751770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-88957019207157815872008-05-22T16:49:00.000-05:002008-05-22T16:49:00.000-05:00Petusek: "1) PIE *H2ok^toH2(u)"I take issue with t...<B>Petusek: <I>"1) PIE *H2ok^toH2(u)"</I></B><BR/><BR/>I take issue with this 'laryngeal madness'. There's no phonological reason to prefer the vowel-colouring laryngeals, <B>*h₂</B> & <B>*h₃</B>, over the neutral (and, one may say, less phonologically marked) <B>*h₁</B> (a simple glottal stop) as found in the commonmost reconstructions. <BR/><BR/>It appears that the only reason to suggest such aGlen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-1070897541874906252008-05-21T18:24:00.000-05:002008-05-21T18:24:00.000-05:00Hi Glen! Perhaps, I could add Václav Blažek's inte...Hi Glen! Perhaps, I could add Václav Blažek's interpretation here, which might also support your views. Let me quote from his conclusion (in Numerals):<BR><BR/>1) PIE <B><I>*H2ok^toH2(u)</I></B><BR><BR/>2) This form represents a dual of o-stem <B><I>*H2ok^to-</I></B>, perhaps syncopated from the original neuter <B><I>*H2ok^etom</I></B> "a set of points (of one hand)" = "fingers (without thumb)". Peťusekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02569341081414751770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-8056627009990871402008-04-30T20:47:00.000-05:002008-04-30T20:47:00.000-05:00Tropylium: "FYI, I just discover'd that someone's ...<B>Tropylium: <I>"FYI, I just discover'd that someone's written an entire thesis on the topic of the origin of the IE numerals (in Spanish, tho) and seems to be arriving in very similar conclusions as you. See here..."</I></B><BR/><BR/>Excellent. Thanks for the heads-up. Perhaps I should blog on this. I'm aware of these etymologies before and they're very widespread. <BR/><BR/>For example, I Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-70203872288366797502008-04-29T10:27:00.000-05:002008-04-29T10:27:00.000-05:00FYI, I just discover'd that someone's written an e...FYI, I just discover'd that someone's written an entire thesis on the topic of the origin of the IE numerals (in Spanish, tho) and seems to be arriving in very similar conclusions as you. <A HREF="http://smallislandnotesan.blogspot.com/2008/01/indo-european-numbers-1-10.html" REL="nofollow">See here</A>...<BR/><BR/>It's possible that this won't be news to you, but I don't see you explicitly Tropyliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12113202845911582040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-66356092492186760792008-03-25T18:51:00.000-05:002008-03-25T18:51:00.000-05:00Rob: "I'm curious - under what conditions does a-e...<B>Rob: <I>"I'm curious - under what conditions does a-epenthesis operate? How do you reconcile words which have similar clusters but no a-epenthesis, such as *(p)ktens "comb" (cf. Greek kteis)?"</I></B><BR/><BR/>Oh oh, there's that parentheses again. If you're using Latin <I>pecten</I> 'comb', then the parentheses is just there to emphasize the dubiousness of <A HREF="http://books.google.ca/Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-66998579815446656022008-03-25T09:47:00.000-05:002008-03-25T09:47:00.000-05:00I'm curious - under what conditions does a-epenthe...I'm curious - under what conditions does a-epenthesis operate? How do you reconcile words which have similar clusters but no a-epenthesis, such as <B>*(p)ktens</B> "comb" (cf. Greek <I>kteis</I>)?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877359715103710249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-84507155343239052812008-03-24T01:14:00.000-05:002008-03-24T01:14:00.000-05:00Thanks Tropylium. A lot of dizzying options though...Thanks Tropylium. A lot of dizzying options though and that website isn't very user-friendly.<BR/><BR/>What I'm thinking of would be very specific and "less wikiing and more blogging". I'd need the ability to easily hyperlink pages and a full control to allow or disallow members at will. Without the ability to restrict access to editing, the wiki becomes a drastic waste of time since I'd be Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-78158981853348419562008-03-23T04:20:00.000-05:002008-03-23T04:20:00.000-05:00I'm not sure however if there is any free "wikispa...<EM>I'm not sure however if there is any free "wikispace" to develop such an endeavor.</EM><BR/><BR/>There are dozens of <A HREF="http://www.wikimatrix.org/" REL="nofollow">free wiki services</A> out there. Might even include something that's immediately blog-like or reformattable as such.Tropyliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12113202845911582040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-59771657988129893492008-03-23T02:37:00.000-05:002008-03-23T02:37:00.000-05:00Sili: "Have you considered a personal wiki for eas...<B>Sili: <I>"Have you considered a personal wiki for easy links to explanations?"</I></B><BR/><BR/>Haha, you see it too, eh? Yes, I'm using Blogger as a makeshift wiki, aren't I? In fact, if Blogger were smart, it would facilitate this webstructure but it doesn't make it easy for me. I'm not sure however if there is any free "wikispace" to develop such an endeavor. That definitely would be Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-88224881181041917142008-03-22T22:27:00.000-05:002008-03-22T22:27:00.000-05:00Have you considered a personal wiki for easy links...Have you considered a personal wiki for easy links to explanations?<BR/><BR/>It could work as a reference for your personal notation as well, perhaps. Help compare your preferred phonemes with more conservative ones.<BR/><BR/><BR/>What about 11, 12 and 20? What's their story? They seem to stand outside of a positional numbering system. Further, in Danish (and English) at least there are two wordsJens Knudsen (Sili)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14078875730565068352noreply@blogger.com