tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post2653279108007903687..comments2023-09-24T05:45:23.811-05:00Comments on Paleoglot: Giving and having in Indo-EuropeanGlen Gordonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-70044187826350759572010-12-22T17:37:27.114-06:002010-12-22T17:37:27.114-06:00Unless you're looking for something more speci...Unless you're looking for something more specific, I'd say that the general prominence of Carthage in Etruscan and Roman trade would guarantee this to be true one way or another.<br /><br />The Etrusco-Punic <a href="http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22pyrgi%20tablets%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1548&bih=890" rel="nofollow"><iGlen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-46319743851675705872010-12-22T14:01:23.051-06:002010-12-22T14:01:23.051-06:00"Don't wonder. The final accent on *septm..."Don't wonder. The final accent on *septm̥ is not attributable to attested Semitic accentuation at all. That in itself is a big tip-off."<br /><br />That's what I meant. This example shows that timing matters. <br />Intensity and terms of contact also matter. Considering that loans from Semitic are not all just trade related, extending even to syntactic patterns, the contact hadJimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07187836541591828806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-49384807970022878052010-12-21T19:57:24.973-06:002010-12-21T19:57:24.973-06:00Jim: "Which leads me to wonder if the fact th...<b>Jim: <i>"Which leads me to wonder if the fact that some etymon shows up across some number of daughter languages is enough reason to conclude that it derives from the common ancestor language."</i></b><br /><br />Don't wonder. The final accent on <b>*septm̥</b> is not attributable to attested Semitic accentuation at all. That in itself is a big tip-off.<br /><br />In PIE, oxytoneGlen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-13383111959833665692010-12-21T16:54:12.916-06:002010-12-21T16:54:12.916-06:00I know about that psychology; sorry if that's ...I know about that psychology; sorry if that's what this sounded like. That has bedeviled IE form the beginning. It was just the matter of the geographic distance. But if what you are positing is influence from a trade language, then that makes a lot of sense. I don't think there is any question that number words would be core trade vocabulary.<br /><br />Based on your periodization of MidJimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07187836541591828806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-68898315165246932282010-12-21T14:29:30.937-06:002010-12-21T14:29:30.937-06:00Jim,
PIE *septm̥ can *only*, and I repeat *ONLY*,...Jim,<br /><br />PIE <b>*septm̥</b> can <i>*only*</i>, and I repeat <i>*ONLY*</i>, come from Proto-Semitic based on both phonetics AND well-attested, specifically **Semitic** grammar. It's directly equatable with the Semitic masculine mimated form in <b>*sabˁ-at-u-m</b> (<b>*sabˁ-</b> 'seven', <b>*-at</b> [feminine; numeric masculine], <b>*-u</b> [nominative] and <b>*-m</b> [mimation])Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-39251562807493356142010-12-21T11:15:12.270-06:002010-12-21T11:15:12.270-06:00I'm missing something. All those etyma are rec...I'm missing something. All those etyma are reconstructed for PIE, not just for Mid IE. "Know' shows up in Sanskrit; i don't know about the rest. But it is very pausble that worsds laoned into Mid IE could be transmitted throught the continuum of IE dialects all the way to the Pamirs.<br /><br />I'm not quibbling about the origin of these etyma, just the path of transmission. Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07187836541591828806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-89446296505360294762010-12-20T14:08:01.789-06:002010-12-20T14:08:01.789-06:00Jim,
Unanalyzable PIE *septm̥ 'seven' wit...Jim,<br /><br />Unanalyzable PIE <b>*septm̥</b> 'seven' with the fully analysable Semitic <b>*sabʕatum</b> (a specifically masculine mimated form of the root <b>*sabʕ-</b>) is an unsurmountable argument and makes any rational denial of contact between Proto-IE and Proto-Semitic impossible.<br /><br />You should review what I've written in the past on Paleoglot about these interesting Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-74265022666614329362010-12-20T10:38:44.428-06:002010-12-20T10:38:44.428-06:00That makes a lot of sense. I bet if you ran a stud...That makes a lot of sense. I bet if you ran a study cross-linguistically a huge percentage of linguistic change would turn out to be that same kind of chinese tiles effect -one change triggering others that trigger others.<br /><br />I think posession and existence are just logically closely linked. Look at 有 - intransitively it menas "exist', transitively it means 'have'. No Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07187836541591828806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-65842260007633939912010-12-19T23:04:01.283-06:002010-12-19T23:04:01.283-06:00Jim: "Maybe the possessum as sentence obtaine...<b>Jim: <i>"Maybe the possessum as sentence obtained at one stage of the language and then got fossilized as a genitive as the typology of the language changed."</i></b><br /><br />For PIE, I believe the genitive in <b>*-ós</b> is quite ancient (< Mid IE <b>*-ása</b>) and shared with the Aegean languages which show <b>*-asa</b>. So the introduction of <b>*-yo</b> was just a Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-16213901342479908432010-12-13T13:17:45.300-06:002010-12-13T13:17:45.300-06:00That -ya extension as a relativizer reminds me of ...That -ya extension as a relativizer reminds me of the way possessed in Salishan languages can translate as sentences meaning "X has Y". In Straits Salish, for example, there is a paradigm of possisive pronominals alongside one that would translate as "X is Y".<br /><br />That does violence to the sentence-hood of sentences containing a possessed noun, on the surface, but maybeJimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07187836541591828806noreply@blogger.com