tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post2394158232672275496..comments2023-09-24T05:45:23.811-05:00Comments on Paleoglot: To conceal a dead tongueGlen Gordonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-14410560155194673702010-11-02T19:05:59.665-05:002010-11-02T19:05:59.665-05:00Gråhatt: "In that case, if I'm correctly ...<b>Gråhatt: <i>"In that case, if I'm correctly updated, cremation in Greece didn't occur before post-Mycenean, which leaves out Mycene as the source of these words."</i></b><br /><br />Yes, you're correctly updated; Mycenaean cremation was indeed rare (see <a href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=8mEiAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Mycenaean+cremations+were+extremely+rare+until+the+Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-86717852577368021022010-10-31T06:34:20.249-05:002010-10-31T06:34:20.249-05:00My comment about Greek not existing at the time on...My comment about Greek not existing at the time only reflects that the Dorian dialects were separated geographically until the Dorians moved into Macedonia, and the convergence of Ancient Greek as we know it could only start from this point. Dorian and Achaean may have been separate IE dialects for a long time before that. Anyway, that's not to the topic.<br /><br />Our “word package” here isGråhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15750145542777130172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-20623998749473470652010-10-30T21:59:56.581-05:002010-10-30T21:59:56.581-05:00I get the feeling you're not making a strong e...I get the feeling you're not making a strong enough distinction in your head between "culture" and "language". The Mycenaeans were certainly "Greek speaking" (ie. an earlier form of Greek) and yet can't be the ultimate source of the vocabulary package I'm talking about here.<br /><br />As for the Mycenaean <i>culture</i>, its spread across land from Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-5922947467559766892010-10-28T06:04:42.248-05:002010-10-28T06:04:42.248-05:00(a couple of comments more, Google though I wrote ...<i>(a couple of comments more, Google though I wrote too much in the first comment ...)</i><br /><br /><b>Glen:<i>“Erh, perhaps the "social mechanism" you're looking for is simply "trade". Trade not only promotes shared material goods but also shared idioms, ideas and belief systems.”</i></b><br /><br />Quite right. Just ignose my comment, I was thinking about some other Gråhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15750145542777130172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-69751206094155195042010-10-28T06:03:44.740-05:002010-10-28T06:03:44.740-05:00Glen:“"Warrior aristocracies" are surely...<b>Glen:<i>“"Warrior aristocracies" are surely more to do with Mycenaeans yet since a Greek origin is not possible for this set of "Western IE" roots like (*)*kel-, this isn't germane to our topic.”</i></b><br /><br />I see some other possiblities. First, “Greek” didn't exist during the heyday of Myceneaen culture (13th century BC): the later Dorians presumably still Gråhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15750145542777130172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-85025158674105150602010-10-26T19:00:27.093-05:002010-10-26T19:00:27.093-05:00"Warrior aristocracies" are surely more ..."Warrior aristocracies" are surely more to do with Mycenaeans yet since a Greek origin is not possible for this set of "Western IE" roots like <b>(*)*kel-</b>, this isn't germane to our topic.<br /><br />However we can agree that the Urnfield culture is a good fit, if not the best fit.<br /><br /><b><i>"In the Urnfield scenario, the Etruscan loans should come rather Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-90927512968429790322010-10-26T04:23:12.574-05:002010-10-26T04:23:12.574-05:00Glen: “The Tumulus culture is just too early.”
To...<b>Glen: <i>“The Tumulus culture is just too early.”</i></b><br /><br />Too early for Etruscan, but quite right for correspondences between the Western IE languages. Or what linguistic considerations did you have in mind?<br /><br /><b>Glen: <i>“Remember that archaeology doesn't often reflect the language situation so don't use it as "proof" of something.”</i></b><br /><br />Gråhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15750145542777130172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-31039500657040037772010-10-26T01:48:10.632-05:002010-10-26T01:48:10.632-05:00Perhaps I should have been more explicit. Is this ...Perhaps I should have been more explicit. Is this suffix attested anywhere in the Aegean languages?Mordrigarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15905659012488502823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-37090129057731426252010-10-26T01:40:33.267-05:002010-10-26T01:40:33.267-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mattiascsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15269214656306242393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-38154704668586278922010-10-25T23:39:30.983-05:002010-10-25T23:39:30.983-05:00Mordrigar, as I said, Beekes already considers it ...Mordrigar, as I said, Beekes already considers it a "Pre-Greek" suffix (ie. "non-IE") and I agree. More specifically, <b>*-upa</b> might be an agentive suffix in Minoan.<br /><br />The main point here is that no one has convincingly shown that these ablaut patterns and suffixing are caused by Proto-Indo-European as we know it (and we know it well at this point).Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-80168953680393572852010-10-25T21:45:17.688-05:002010-10-25T21:45:17.688-05:00If the word is a borrowing into Greek, whence the ...If the word is a borrowing into Greek, whence the -u(p/b) suffix?Mordrigarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15905659012488502823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-21752020036733928862010-10-25T19:26:28.995-05:002010-10-25T19:26:28.995-05:00By the way, if we're going to point to an arch...By the way, if we're going to point to an archaeological culture to frame these Aegean loanwords, let's look instead at the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures. This is a more appropriate time period. In fact, the distribution of the culture shown by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UrnfieldCulture.jpg" rel="nofollow">the graphic currently on Wikipedia</a> seems to favour an Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-14688388897909805782010-10-25T19:09:00.613-05:002010-10-25T19:09:00.613-05:00Gråhatt: "As with the caput/haubuda case, tho...<b>Gråhatt: <i>"As with the caput/haubuda case, though, I think a fitting loaning periode for common “Western IE” words would be during the Tumulus culture [...], which also had vital connections with the Aegean world."</i></b><br /><br />The Tumulus culture is just too early. All loans can only have happened around the onset of the 1st millennium BCE based on linguistic considerations.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-6190453491467926792010-10-25T17:08:57.860-05:002010-10-25T17:08:57.860-05:00I agree that a PIE origin for this word is far fro...I agree that a PIE origin for this word is far from certain. As with the <i>caput/haubuda</i> case, though, I think a fitting loaning periode for common “Western IE” words would be during the Tumulus culture (being more or less ancestral to the three groups), which also had vital connections with the Aegean world. Pre-IE languages of the area could also be a major source. It is difficult to Gråhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15750145542777130172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-41338328201940087102010-10-25T13:24:00.919-05:002010-10-25T13:24:00.919-05:00Monier-Williams confirms that śaras- means 'cr...Monier-Williams confirms that śaras- means 'cream, film on boiled mil; a thin layer of ashes'.<br /><br />Which <i>might</i> be related, but I agree that the word is much to obscure in semantics to be sure.PhoeniXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17627425696035152752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-85084179216069343002010-10-24T19:52:48.964-05:002010-10-24T19:52:48.964-05:00Bayndor, one could also relate KA-RO-PA3 to Etrusc...Bayndor, one could also relate KA-RO-PA3 to Etruscan <i>crapś-ti</i> (LL 4.viii) if from <i>craφ</i> in our ignorance. I'd question why "to conceal" is used to derive a noun for these types of vessels. Also, it would be nice to see confirmation of /l/ in, say, other wanderworts in neighbouring languages related to this term.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-80982305329125639302010-10-24T19:42:20.784-05:002010-10-24T19:42:20.784-05:00Gråhatt, but how do we distinguish an inherited ve...Gråhatt, but how do we distinguish an inherited verb from Indo-European from a loaned verb in Pre-Germanic, Celtic, etc. that had time to develop native ablaut patterns? It still remains a problem that the root isn't attested outside of Europe.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-11557539189540037952010-10-24T16:46:53.042-05:002010-10-24T16:46:53.042-05:00The Germanic evidence also includes *helanan and *...The Germanic evidence also includes <b>*helanan</b> and <b>*huljanan</b>, thus various ablauts. And then we have Old Irish <i>celid</i>, thus a full Italo-Celtic-Germanic package.Gråhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15750145542777130172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-62859130852392782122010-10-24T06:18:46.413-05:002010-10-24T06:18:46.413-05:00I am unsure if it matters, but one of the Minoan L...I am unsure if it matters, but one of the Minoan Linear A tablets from Haghia Triada (HT31) also features the term <b>KA-RO-PA3</b> (<i>*kalopha</i>? <i>*kalúppa</i>?) as a name of a particular vase-type. From the <a href="http://www.people.ku.edu/~jyounger/LinearA/HT_31_Sm.jpg" rel="nofollow">image</a> it seems to be a krater with a big hande.Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.com