tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post7925675872981998191..comments2023-09-24T05:45:23.811-05:00Comments on Paleoglot: Concern trolls and the Etruscan bilabial 'f'Glen Gordonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-10905105536032132272009-12-25T09:40:37.758-06:002009-12-25T09:40:37.758-06:00Rob,
I detect dogmatic skepticism (ie. denial bas...Rob,<br /><br />I detect dogmatic skepticism (ie. denial based on nothing and in favour of nothing) coupled with a misunderstanding of my position.<br /><br /><b>Rob: <i>"So it seems clear to me that the former is the result of palatalization before /i/, an extremely common phenomenon among languages."</i></b><br /><br />I never once contested this and that Japanese <i>chi</i> is the Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-42302533261104679322009-12-23T19:42:51.639-06:002009-12-23T19:42:51.639-06:00For what it's worth, in Canadian French (apart...For what it's worth, in Canadian French (apart from Acadian varieties), /t/ and /d/ are realised without exception as [ʦ] and [ʣ] before the high front vowels /i/ and /y/ (including their lax counterparts). The Japanese facts could just as well be explained as a similar case of affrication before high vowels with a secondary process of palatalisation before /i/.Kiwehtinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07831448036496196819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-17975158200167539412009-12-21T09:37:37.020-06:002009-12-21T09:37:37.020-06:00If it were vowel height/closedness that caused the...If it were vowel height/closedness that caused the affrication, then the affricates would be the same. But this is not what we see at all, is it? What we see is an alveo-palatal affricate before /i/ and an alveolar affricate before /u/. So it seems clear to me that the former is the result of palatalization before /i/, an extremely common phenomenon among languages. This leaves the Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877359715103710249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-16059646728795193762009-12-14T21:23:45.809-06:002009-12-14T21:23:45.809-06:00Rob: "The Japanese phoneme /t/ is realized as...<b>Rob: <i>"The Japanese phoneme /t/ is realized as [ts] when next to /u/. More than likely, this has to do with the fact that Japanese /u/ was originally rounded."</i></b><br /><br />No, rounding can't explain this. Remember the sonority hierarchy: fricative > approximant > vowel. For example, we can think of /w/ as a "more closed" version of /u/ and in turn, a Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-11129854363436379412009-12-14T10:14:10.141-06:002009-12-14T10:14:10.141-06:00The Japanese phoneme /t/ is realized as [ts] when ...The Japanese phoneme /t/ is realized as [ts] when next to /u/. More than likely, this has to do with the fact that Japanese /u/ was originally rounded. It seems possible (plausible?) that the lip-rounding with /u/, perhaps combined with the vowel height, weakened the articulation of an adjacent onset /t/.<br /><br />If anything, the case for lip-rounding causing lenition of /p/ is even strongerRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877359715103710249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-82547177564754427372009-12-14T01:48:25.026-06:002009-12-14T01:48:25.026-06:00Oops, one added point. On a phonemic level, the on...Oops, one added point. On a phonemic level, the only intermediary available between bilabial stop /p/ and labiodental fricative /f/ is bilabial fricative /ɸ/ since an intermediary labiodental plosive /p̪/ is rarely if ever used as a phoneme.<br /><br />This is another cool fact not commonly known and therefore constructively surprising for many people.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-33103685257807781212009-12-14T01:39:10.565-06:002009-12-14T01:39:10.565-06:00Yes, bilabial fricatives should be unsurprising, b...Yes, bilabial fricatives should be unsurprising, but Etruscan u-triggered lenition is however <i>not</i> common knowledge, so even if you personally don't find that interesting, others certainly will.<br /><br />It's also constructive to test out views on historical phonology against real, modern examples. My proposed Etruscan sound change tests out just fine with the Yimas example.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-39227569014489943612009-12-13T22:18:22.011-06:002009-12-13T22:18:22.011-06:00I'm kind of surprised this could be considered...I'm kind of surprised this could be considered surprising. In eastern Bantu languages, it is commonplace for proto-Bantu bilabial stops (voiced and voiceless) to change into labiodental fricatives before close high u and/or i, and I do believe – though this needs to be checked – that in some of these languages, these fricatives are in fact bilabials themselves. If I'm mistaken about the Kiwehtinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07831448036496196819noreply@blogger.com