tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post3469172969766344115..comments2023-09-24T05:45:23.811-05:00Comments on Paleoglot: Szemerenyi's Law and Mid IEGlen Gordonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-30696291081980647632008-06-27T15:46:00.000-05:002008-06-27T15:46:00.000-05:00Tropylium: "Yes. Then this nevertheless ends up in...<B>Tropylium: <I>"Yes. Then this nevertheless ends up in the word-final position, where the distinction is lost. You'd expect to see *-dh if the MIE consonant was *-d-, right? But if there is no *-dh whatsoever to be found, [...]"</I></B><BR/><BR/>STOP!! It's a very clever solution but if word-final contrasts are indeed neutralized to only two members as you believe, then can you prove that Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-77112613070426903392008-06-27T08:14:00.000-05:002008-06-27T08:14:00.000-05:00But in MIE, these stops aren't word-final. Unstres...<EM>But in MIE, these stops aren't word-final. Unstressed word-final schwa disappears during Syncope. The contrast exists in initial and medial position in MIE.</EM><BR/><BR/>Yes. Then this nevertheless ends up in the word-final position, where the distinction is lost. You'd expect to see *-dh if the MIE consonant was *-d-, right? But if there is no *-dh whatsoever to be found, this can be Tropyliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12113202845911582040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-66738640010186089582008-06-16T14:41:00.000-05:002008-06-16T14:41:00.000-05:00Tropylium: "Actually, another thought. Remember th...<B>Tropylium: <I>"Actually, another thought. Remember that there's a cross-linguistic aversion to word-final aspirates. So why push this specific distribution all the way to MIE?"</I></B><BR/><BR/>But in MIE, these stops aren't word-final. Unstressed word-final schwa disappears during <I>Syncope</I>. The contrast exists in initial and medial position in MIE.<BR/><BR/><B>Tropylium: <I>"No need forGlen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-23667071383372949002008-06-16T04:47:00.000-05:002008-06-16T04:47:00.000-05:00Since the traditional "voiced aspirated stops" in ...<EM>Since the traditional "voiced aspirated stops" in PIE suffixes never occur in word-final position in order to contrast with attested <B>*-t</B> of the 3ps and <B>*-d</B> of the pronominal inanimate, this characteristic needs to be explained somehow.</EM><BR/><BR/>Actually, another thought. Remember that there's a cross-linguistic aversion to word-final aspirates. So why push this specific Tropyliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12113202845911582040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-79915302265878959582008-06-11T16:55:00.000-05:002008-06-11T16:55:00.000-05:00Tropylium: "No, in terms of glottal constriction, ...<B>Tropylium: <I>"No, in terms of glottal constriction, creaky voice comes after modal voice on the phonation scale, not between it and voicelessness."</I></B><BR/><BR/>Since the traditional "voiced aspirated stops" in PIE suffixes never occur in word-final position in order to contrast with attested <B>*-t</B> of the 3ps and <B>*-d</B> of the pronominal inanimate, this characteristic needs to beGlen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-2857873973172690062008-06-11T09:34:00.000-05:002008-06-11T09:34:00.000-05:00No, in terms of glottal constriction, creaky voice...No, in terms of glottal constriction, creaky voice comes <EM>after</EM> modal voice on the phonation scale, not between it and voicelessness. You're probably thinking of slack voice here. Similarly the order of the phonations proposed by glottalic theory is P < B < P', and the traditional theory also goes P < Bh < B. Notice how these match each other but not what you suggest?<BR/><BR/>The Tropyliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12113202845911582040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-30760271740527230662008-06-10T16:02:00.000-05:002008-06-10T16:02:00.000-05:00Tropylium: "First, if you argue that the tradition...<B>Tropylium: <I>"First, if you argue that the traditional voiced aspirates were plain voiced by this stage, why aren't those what is produced?"</I></B><BR/><BR/>I was ready for that question. If you think about it, if we say that there are three dental stops (voiceless <B>*t</B>, creaky <B>*dĚ°</B> and fully voiced <B>*d</B>) then we're admitting to a <I>voicing scale</I> or <I>hierarchy</I> in Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-81510461678234299342008-06-10T07:09:00.000-05:002008-06-10T07:09:00.000-05:00Your medial voicing looks weird in the case of sto...Your medial voicing looks weird in the case of stops. First, if you argue that the traditional voiced aspirates were plain voiced by this stage, why aren't those what is produced? Second, what are the conditions? Obviously it can't be everything, so only intervocalic consonants before an elided final vowel? Sounds awfully specific...<BR/><BR/>You could also remind me why do you even want to Tropyliumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12113202845911582040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-16543538771708182992008-06-09T12:00:00.000-05:002008-06-09T12:00:00.000-05:00Rob: "Glen, do you know of any other environments ...<B>Rob: <I>"Glen, do you know of any other environments besides the thematic vowel where these changes take place? Otherwise, your theory (just like Jens') seems rather ad hoc."</I></B><BR/><BR/>Ouch! You're mean ;-) Well, you have to understand that I'm trying to explain the <B>*o</B>/<B>*e</B> alternation of the thematic vowel and it just so happens that aside from <B>*o</B> appearing before Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-60468587071473795252008-06-08T10:42:00.000-05:002008-06-08T10:42:00.000-05:00Do you have any reason to believe that the nominal...Do you have any reason to believe that the nominal thematic vowel and the verbal thematic vowel must have developed at the same time and under the same conditions? If so, what is it?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877359715103710249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-37424994275656966012008-06-08T10:39:00.000-05:002008-06-08T10:39:00.000-05:00Glen, do you know of any other environments beside...Glen, do you know of any other environments besides the thematic vowel where these changes take place? Otherwise, your theory (just like Jens') seems rather ad-hoc.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877359715103710249noreply@blogger.com