tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post3021851840749199233..comments2023-09-24T05:45:23.811-05:00Comments on Paleoglot: Winter's Law in Balto-Slavic, "Hybrid Theory" and phonation - Part 2Glen Gordonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-17672899656075712642009-06-10T10:37:11.672-05:002009-06-10T10:37:11.672-05:00Update for June 2009!
I'm beginning to realiz...<b>Update for June 2009!</b><br /><br />I'm beginning to realize that 'stop harmony' in PIE roots (ie. the avoidance of both voiceless and voiced stops cooccurring in the same root) might in fact undermine my initial argument against reconstructing breathy stops in PIE itself. <br /><br />We might be able to combine the Hybrid Theory above with an explanation of stop harmony using Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-22411554893191248082008-01-25T15:32:00.000-06:002008-01-25T15:32:00.000-06:00Rob: "This leaves the voiced and voiceless stops."...<B>Rob: <I>"This leaves the voiced and voiceless stops."</I></B><BR/><BR/>I just don't see why PIE speakers would go through the extra articulatory effort of aspirating voiced stops unless there was a concrete purpose at the time. There doesn't seem to be a motivation for breathy phonation until the ejectives become creaky and start pushing the other voiced series to the breathy end of the Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-78342517560667137662008-01-24T12:40:00.000-06:002008-01-24T12:40:00.000-06:00Here is what I am saying:Earliest IE (or maybe bet...Here is what I am saying:<BR/><BR/>Earliest IE (or maybe better Pre-IE) distinguished the following co-articulated features <I>phonemically</I> in its stops: voicing and glottalization. This means that aspiration was not a phonemic feature; thus it could appear in free variation. Now a glottalized aspirated stop does not make much sense, and may even be impossible from an articulatory point of Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877359715103710249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-65921403507245145322008-01-24T01:48:00.000-06:002008-01-24T01:48:00.000-06:00Rob: How do you explain the free variation of glot...<B>Rob: <I>How do you explain the free variation of glottalization -- a marked feature -- in English coda stops?</I></B><BR/><BR/>Contrast maximization. In English, the phoneme /tʰ/, like any phoneme in any language, has a few allophones available. Generally speaking, the phoneme is distinguished from /d/ in terms of the absence of voice and the presence of aspiration, but various allophones do Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-90048657808672386282008-01-23T10:06:00.000-06:002008-01-23T10:06:00.000-06:00Glen: "No, because A) breathiness is a marked feat...<B>Glen: <I>"No, because A) breathiness is a marked feature (i.e. extra effort to pronounce than modal /d/) and B) Grassman's Law is restricted precisely to dialects which would have undergone phonation shift. Your idea violates markedness principles, lacks a reason for the areal restriction of Grassman's Law, and is immediately counter to Occam's Razor (i.e. the solution with the least number ofRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877359715103710249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-51377272263569238312008-01-21T14:00:00.000-06:002008-01-21T14:00:00.000-06:00Rob: "Based on all the known IE languages, it seem...<B>Rob: <I>"Based on all the known IE languages, it seems that the non-ejective stops had aspirated/breathy-voiced allophones in free variation."</I></B><BR/><BR/>No, because <B>A)</B> breathiness is a <I>marked</I> feature (i.e. extra effort to pronounce than modal /d/) and <B>B)</B> <I>Grassman's Law</I> is restricted precisely to dialects which would have undergone phonation shift. Your idea Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-7609785991786765982008-01-21T11:05:00.000-06:002008-01-21T11:05:00.000-06:00Glen, I think your last two blog posts lend suppor...Glen, I think your last two blog posts lend support to the "IE Sprachbund" thesis. Let me explain.<BR/><BR/>Based on all the known IE languages, it seems that the non-ejective stops had aspirated/breathy-voiced allophones in <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_variation" REL="nofollow">free variation</A>. Later on, due to changing conditions, different dialects modified their stop Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04877359715103710249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-63815371907220295442008-01-20T10:55:00.000-06:002008-01-20T10:55:00.000-06:00Maybe I should add for completeness, that if Grass...Maybe I should add for completeness, that if Grassman's Law surfaced already during this hypothetical common "phonation shift" between Proto-Hellenic and Proto-Indo-Iranian, then forms like Greek <I>títhēmi</I> would have to be explained as resulting from analogical pressures that forced <B>*d</B> to devoice along with <B>*dʰ</B> in the underlying post-Grassman's-Law form, <B>*dídʰehmi</B>. <BR/>Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-48437025090860066132008-01-20T10:04:00.000-06:002008-01-20T10:04:00.000-06:00This is gonna be long...Phoenix: "In Sanskrit the ...This is gonna be long...<BR/><BR/><B>Phoenix: <I>"In Sanskrit the Modal /d/ > /dh/ can be explained due to foreign introduction of voiceless aspirates, and thus Sanskrit trying to rebalance its phonological system."</I></B><BR/><BR/>No, that's a non-optimal solution. Foreign influence is unnecessary. A "phonation shift" is perfectly natural if you think of it as a "maximization of contrasts". My Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-34619662369290360302008-01-19T21:45:00.000-06:002008-01-19T21:45:00.000-06:00The Lenition of ejective /t'/ to a creaky voiced /...The Lenition of ejective /t'/ to a creaky voiced /d/ to me, seems very plausible.<BR/><BR/>Having two voiced types of /d/ would also explain why these two phonemes simply merge in many languages.<BR/><BR/>In Sanskrit the Modal /d/ > /dh/ can be explained due to foreign introduction of voiceless aspirates, and thus Sanskrit trying to rebalance its phonological system.<BR/><BR/>What is harder to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com