tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post1383136814109275335..comments2023-09-24T05:45:23.811-05:00Comments on Paleoglot: Searching for an etymology for Germanic *handuz 'hand'Glen Gordonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-40281797837190257042010-05-03T07:52:48.041-05:002010-05-03T07:52:48.041-05:00There would indeed be nothing surprising about suc...There would indeed be nothing surprising about such an etymology for ‘hand’. We can find other "handy" words in this line: PGmc <b>*gripa-</b> ‘part of hand which holds something’, easily comprehensible from ‘to grip’, and PGmc <b>*hneba-</b> ‘fist’, seemingly from PIE <b>*knep-</b>.<br /><br />But exactly the many words in this line make me think that the etymology of ‘hand’ might Gråhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15750145542777130172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-20951674370160744192009-11-08T19:32:28.270-06:002009-11-08T19:32:28.270-06:00Peťusek: "[...] I've just found out that ...<b>Peťusek: <i>"[...] I've just found out that Vladimir Orel [...] derives PGmc */xanđuz/ from */xenþanan/ (cf. Lithuanian /rankà/ "hand" ~ /renkù/, /riñkti/ "to gather") > Gothic /fra-hinþan/ "to take captive, to capture" and Old Swedish /hinna/ "to gain", suggesting Greek /kentéo/ "to<br />prick, to goad" might be related."</i><Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-61743095556859816412009-11-04T08:52:10.284-06:002009-11-04T08:52:10.284-06:00Hi Glen!
I don't know if this helps, but I...Hi Glen!<br /><br />I don't know if this helps, but I've just found out that Vladimir Orel (in his "A Handbook of Germanic Etymology", 2003) derives PGmc */xanđuz/ from */xenþanan/ (cf. Lithuanian /rankà/ "hand" ~ /renkù/, /riñkti/ "to gather") > Gothic /fra-hinþan/ "to take captive, to capture" and Old Swedish /hinna/ "to gain", Peťusekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02569341081414751770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-8690826847289195992009-10-30T17:18:13.929-05:002009-10-30T17:18:13.929-05:00Phoenix: "Erhm but help bue out here. Gothic ...<b>Phoenix: <i>"Erhm but help bue out here. Gothic fra-hinþan What happened to *d here. That's not supposed to end up as *þ. And actually I don't understand the *t in OEn. hentan either."</i></b><br /><br /><a href="http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65311" rel="nofollow">Douglas Kilday on the Cybalist forum</a> looks like he's going into length about this Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-38233945763063191442009-10-30T17:12:24.265-05:002009-10-30T17:12:24.265-05:00These are very good arguments. Yet this just makes...These are very good arguments. Yet this just makes me feel stretched between two implausible positions without a clear solution.<br /><br />If one decides that Germanic <b>*handuz</b> is from PIE <b>*kont-</b>, the semantics that gets us from 'ten' to 'hand' is unjustified. Where else is such a verb root, whether connected to the numeral or not, attested? Given these facts, this Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-37825027193388424632009-10-30T07:30:10.745-05:002009-10-30T07:30:10.745-05:00Hey Glen, I like the idea of taking the whole Lati...Hey Glen, I like the idea of taking the whole Latin loanword, and making the word 'hand' an internal construction in Germanic. That solves the problem that we don't find Latin *handus.<br /><br />Erhm but help bue out here. Gothic <i>fra-hinþan</i> What happened to *d here. That's not supposed to end up as *þ. And actually I don't understand the *t in OEn. <i>hentan</i> eitherPhoeniXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17627425696035152752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-74098677069547656822009-10-30T04:55:41.645-05:002009-10-30T04:55:41.645-05:00Poetry is the reason we care about, or are really ...Poetry is the reason we care about, or are really even aware of, rhyme. <br /><br />There is, however, a larger issue, which is that of timing. Proto-Germanic was undergoing several major changes, including mora-loss, at the period when first contact was established with Rome, and was also simultaneously splitting into Northwest and East Germanic. This means that we only have about a 50-150 Sergei Andropovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15264025738916361584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-65453252828411175352009-10-29T13:59:31.828-05:002009-10-29T13:59:31.828-05:00I would agree with PhoeniX - if "hand" w...I would agree with PhoeniX - if "hand" were to be a early Latin loan in Germanic, I would expect to see many more Latin loans in Proto-Germanic. The borrowing of "they", "them", "their" from Old Norse into English accompanied fairly massive Old Norse borrowing (e.g. egg, husband, sky, etc. etc.). [Even then, the OE form of the third plural pronoun survives be_slayedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02920742528327860445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-69909655298636148062009-10-29T04:23:12.353-05:002009-10-29T04:23:12.353-05:00PhoeniX: "It's just, if such a core word ...<b>PhoeniX: <i>"It's just, if such a core word was loaned into the Germanic languages, I would prefer to see a lot more extensive loaning from Latin in Germanic at such an early stage."</i></b><br /><br />Yes, exactly, and I've also thought about this today. I have to accept this problem and deal with it. So...<br /><br />Let's adapt and try a variation on this idea. Let&#Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-33634658628823497982009-10-28T01:00:51.745-05:002009-10-28T01:00:51.745-05:00*Handus and manūs are not poetically compatible. ...<i>*Handus</i> and <i>manūs</i> are not poetically compatible. At the time period you're referring to, Latin poetry was based on syllable weight and Germanic poetry (if Old English is anything to go by) was based on alliteration.Sergei Andropovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15264025738916361584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-44334966495488494942009-10-27T14:52:43.699-05:002009-10-27T14:52:43.699-05:00Of course very true. But a word like 'hand'...Of course very true. But a word like 'hand' seems even more unlikely than numerals, though arguably, maybe more likely than pronouns, which has happened in English.<br /><br />It's just, if such a core word was loaned into the Germanic languages, I would prefer to see a lot more extensive loaning from Latin in Germanic at such an early stage.<br /><br />Sure in Dutch and German there&PhoeniXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17627425696035152752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-65180892675572649742009-10-27T08:07:32.039-05:002009-10-27T08:07:32.039-05:00That's not a valid linguistic argument because...That's not a valid linguistic argument because you mistake a <i>tendency</i> for an absolute.<br /><br />When Roger Lass states, "But loanwords are less common in 'core' areas of the lexicon like the names of body-parts, numerals, kinship terms, or grammatical categories like inflectional endings." (<a href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=onIXR2xnV5gC&pg=PA105&dq=%Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7202150793869184289.post-22225158450338410322009-10-27T05:17:06.533-05:002009-10-27T05:17:06.533-05:00It seems odd to assume a Latin loanword for a word...It seems odd to assume a Latin loanword for a word so basic as 'hand'.<br /><br />Do we know of any precedent in another language?PhoeniXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17627425696035152752noreply@blogger.com